BVE WorldWide
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

+3
ecreek
leyland1195
Phonteus Nevolius
7 posters

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by Phonteus Nevolius Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:58 pm

I've just tried OpenBVE 1.7.1.0 with the new renderer enabled. FPS is very low compared to earlier builds (about one fifth of what previous versions produced). Then I took the checkmark out of the "Enable new renderer" box but FPS is still very low. I guess the new renderer was not actually disabled somehow.

Just to make sure, I ran OpenBVE 1.7.0.3 and FPS went back to normal, five times higher than that of v1.7.1.0.

This issue is also present in the 2019-12-08 daily build.
Phonteus Nevolius
Phonteus Nevolius

Posts : 112
Join date : 2017-10-05
Location : Hungary

https://phonteusnevolius.wordpress.com

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by leezer3 Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:27 pm

Odd. I'm guessing it's not the renderer itself specifically, but rather something it's doing on your system then, as there were some internal plumbing changes to accomodate it.

On my test systems, I can see essentially no change between the two which is somewhat frustrating and should logically be the case....

Any chance of a bad routefile & sone system specs?

leezer3

Posts : 1802
Join date : 2011-08-23

http://www.bvecornwall.co.uk

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by Phonteus Nevolius Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:44 pm

System specs: Intel i3 dual core CPU at 3.4 GHz, 8 GB RAM, Win 10, Nvidia Geforce GTX 650 graphics card.

Some routes (FPS values are at the start of the route, in cab, all routes tested with their respective default trains, in v1.7.1.0 the Enable new renderer box unchecked):

- Budapest Tram Line 57:

  • v1.7.1.0: about 48 fps
  • v1.7.0.3: about 230 fps.

- Menvár (1 Használtcikkpiac-Vadaspark.csv): 

  • v1.7.1.0: about 35 fps
  • v1.7.0.3: about 120 fps

- Nagybörzsöny-Nagyirtás (Nagyborzsony-Nagyirtas.csv):

  • v1.7.1.0: about 20 fps
  • v1.7.0.3: about 60 fps

- Portarlington (1320 Heuston-Portarlington route file):

  • v1.7.1.0: about 45 fps
  • v1.7.0.3: about 180 fps

- The Plymouth Route (package version 1.7.0.1, 1960s, 81xx route file):

  • v1.7.1.0: about 60 fps
  • v1.7.0.3: about 200 fps
Phonteus Nevolius
Phonteus Nevolius

Posts : 112
Join date : 2017-10-05
Location : Hungary

https://phonteusnevolius.wordpress.com

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by leezer3 Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:29 pm

Interesting.

I can now see something of an issue, but nowhere near as much as you Sad
(After a couple of loads, anything from 10- 20% on a couple of the nastier routefiles)

I've made one improvement so far (affects both old and new), will need to do some more digging and testing to see what we can do on this.

Not sure if we'll be able to get it absolutely back to the previous levels, but working on it.

leezer3

Posts : 1802
Join date : 2011-08-23

http://www.bvecornwall.co.uk

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by LXQt Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:01 am

Same here, on 1.7.1.0 the fps is lower than 1.7.0.3, also apparently some night texture won't display properly on 1.7.1.0

MTR Light Rail Route 610 + Light Rail Phase IV(self-made):
1.7.0.3: 60fps(probably even higher but I have Vsync enabled)
1.7.1.0: 30fps(the chair and the light inside the train is keep flashing between dimmer texture and the normal texture)

MTR Kwun Tong Line + MTR C-Train:
1.7.0.3: 21fps
1.7.1.0: 11fps(the window and the light texture inside the train is dimmed)

Also is it just me or the Control part(F, B3, L, R) etc. look less saturated?

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? B1YfTTA

LXQt

Posts : 107
Join date : 2019-02-18
Age : 16
Location : Hong Kong

https://kennyhui.pp.ua

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by Phonteus Nevolius Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:29 pm

Also is it just me or the Control part(F, B3, L, R) etc. look less saturated?
They do look less saturated, not as clear as usual.


Last edited by Phonteus Nevolius on Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:14 pm; edited 2 times in total
Phonteus Nevolius
Phonteus Nevolius

Posts : 112
Join date : 2017-10-05
Location : Hungary

https://phonteusnevolius.wordpress.com

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by leezer3 Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:31 pm

Still working on this & investigating- Please bear with me (Wrong time of year to be trying to work on something like this....)
Intel integrated graphics cards are considerably faster with the new renderer, but others have lost some Sad

Most recent build will be faster (although only marginally so dependant on the system), and corrects the HUD color change.

Edit:
Decent FPS boost for the new renderer now should be live. (Build timed at c. 14.12)
Not done anything for the old, still fishing around in the guts of the thing....

leezer3

Posts : 1802
Join date : 2011-08-23

http://www.bvecornwall.co.uk

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by leyland1195 Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:20 pm

Just tested new version, Loaded up with new render enabled on and all was fine was consistent at 60fps but then loaded up with it turned off and the background image on the route was no longer showing, Might be because a old route as I don't have any newer routes to test, If somebody else could confirm or deny they have the same issue?

leyland1195

Posts : 34
Join date : 2012-09-24

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by leezer3 Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:32 pm

Rats, that's definitely my fault (TLDR: The 'old' renderer in 1.7.1.0 is actually using part of the new renderer for the background. I disabled this, haven't fixed it properly...).

Will get that fixed today or tomorrow with any luck.

leezer3

Posts : 1802
Join date : 2011-08-23

http://www.bvecornwall.co.uk

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by leezer3 Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:21 pm

Haven't fixed the background issue yet, but kicked a good few more FPS out of the new renderer. Some numbers from people seeing massive drops would now be interesting; In some cases I hope the FPS will close to double.

https://vps.bvecornwall.co.uk/OpenBVE/Builds/OpenBVE-2019-12-19.zip

Some of these changes will likely also help with the speed issues in the old renderer, but at the moment I'm concentrating on the new as the first priority.
Will then go back over the old and repeat this.

leezer3

Posts : 1802
Join date : 2011-08-23

http://www.bvecornwall.co.uk

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by Phonteus Nevolius Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:50 pm

I'll test it, but unfortunately not earlier than Sunday (lack of time).
Phonteus Nevolius
Phonteus Nevolius

Posts : 112
Join date : 2017-10-05
Location : Hungary

https://phonteusnevolius.wordpress.com

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by ecreek Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:14 am

WOW!
I went from 30fps to 60 fps with the latest build.
Great work!

ecreek

Posts : 55
Join date : 2011-08-23

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by LXQt Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:48 am

Tried the new build, fps is now higher than the new render build(but it's the same fps as 1.7.0.3). Also my train have a light toggle function, but after 1.7.1.0 or the newest build, all the object are now flickering between the bright version and the dimmed version no matter if I use the new render or not (it only flicker when I move my camera)

LXQt

Posts : 107
Join date : 2019-02-18
Age : 16
Location : Hong Kong

https://kennyhui.pp.ua

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by leezer3 Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:15 am

Any chance of a link to / copy of the broken train?

Need to do some testing to figure out what's actually wrong here.

leezer3

Posts : 1802
Join date : 2011-08-23

http://www.bvecornwall.co.uk

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by LXQt Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:53 pm

leezer3 wrote:Any chance of a link to / copy of the broken train?

Need to do some testing to figure out what's actually wrong here.
Here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=11UQKYJQryRblLLYc5bZFkWHOX0MwzKt9
It works perfectly normal before 1.7.1.0, press "8" (not numpad) to toggle the light.

LXQt

Posts : 107
Join date : 2019-02-18
Age : 16
Location : Hong Kong

https://kennyhui.pp.ua

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by Phonteus Nevolius Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:47 pm

I've added the figures for the 2019-12-21 build, of course with the new renderer enabled. To make it easier to find the new results I've underlined them.

- Budapest Tram Line 57:

  • v1.7.1.0: about 48 fps
  • v1.7.0.3: about 230 fps.
  • 2019-12-21 build: about 79 fps

- Menvár (1 Használtcikkpiac-Vadaspark.csv): 

  • v1.7.1.0: about 35 fps
  • v1.7.0.3: about 120 fps
  • 2019-12-21 build: about 50 fps

- Nagybörzsöny-Nagyirtás (Nagyborzsony-Nagyirtas.csv):

  • v1.7.1.0: about 20 fps
  • v1.7.0.3: about 60 fps
  • 2019-12-21 build: about 28 fps

- Portarlington (1320 Heuston-Portarlington route file):

  • v1.7.1.0: about 45 fps
  • v1.7.0.3: about 180 fps
  • 2019-12-21 build: about 60 fps

- The Plymouth Route (package version 1.7.0.1, 1960s, 81xx route file):

  • v1.7.1.0: about 60 fps
  • v1.7.0.3: about 200 fps
  • 2019-12-21 build: about 80 fps


So, the FPS values are somewhat better (as you said), but still very far from OpenBVE 1.7.0.3.

Looks like it is still impossible to turn off the new renderer (or something like that): if I take the checkmark out of the Enable new renderer checkbox FPS stays the same as before, with the checkmark in the box (so I assume the new renderer is still running). That means I'm stuck on OpenBVE 1.7.0.3 for the time being.
Phonteus Nevolius
Phonteus Nevolius

Posts : 112
Join date : 2017-10-05
Location : Hungary

https://phonteusnevolius.wordpress.com

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by leezer3 Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:35 pm

It's definitely not running, but the internals are somewhat different between the two versions, which is why we still seem to gave a drop Sad
No idea why you're being hit so hard though. 

It'd also be interesting to see what you (and anyone else for that matter) think of the overall responsiveness when there are large numbers of complex animated objects in scene- This is another area where the new renderer should be considerably better.

The only visible difference at the minute should be the broken sky with the old renderer which I haven't fixed yet....

I'm hopeful I should have some more boosts to FPS when I get a little more time after Christmas.

FWIW, technically speaking I would absolutely expect the figures to be identical (or as near as makes no difference) between the two render paths; The number of polygons drawn is what decides the speed.

leezer3

Posts : 1802
Join date : 2011-08-23

http://www.bvecornwall.co.uk

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by leezer3 Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:56 pm

Found another few decent boosts in some situations today:
https://vps.bvecornwall.co.uk/OpenBVE/Builds/OpenBVE-2019-12-24.zip

Still working on this and will hopefully get a few more over the next few days.

Haven't looked into the graphical glitches yet though, but they're on my list to do so ASAP Smile

Edit:
Few more added just now, no work on glitches at present.

Edit2:
You should be able to see a significant different between 'old' and 'new' at the minute too. On the Portarlington routefile with the latest changes, the 'new' renderer is approximately double the FPS of the old, although I've done absolutely no optimisation on the old yet....

leezer3

Posts : 1802
Join date : 2011-08-23

http://www.bvecornwall.co.uk

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by leezer3 Wed Dec 25, 2019 6:24 pm

LXQt wrote:
leezer3 wrote:Any chance of a link to / copy of the broken train?

Need to do some testing to figure out what's actually wrong here.
Here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=11UQKYJQryRblLLYc5bZFkWHOX0MwzKt9
It works perfectly normal before 1.7.1.0, press "8" (not numpad) to toggle the light.

Interesting.

You've hit what I'd term undocumented behaviour here, which in turn rather messed up some of the assumptions in the lighting model.
Let's take an example meshbuilder section (chair from the interior):
Code:
CreateMeshBuilder,
AddVertex, -0.11, 0.28, 0.2,
AddVertex, -0.11, 0.74, 0.039,
AddVertex, 0.21, 0.74, 0.039,
AddVertex, 0.21, 0.28, 0.2,
AddFace2,3,2,1,0,
GenerateNormals,
LoadTexture,chair1.png,chair1.png,
SetTextureCoordinates,0,0,1,
SetTextureCoordinates,1,0,0,
SetTextureCoordinates,2,1,0
SetTextureCoordinates,3,1,1,
SetDecalTransparentColor,0,144,181,

You've defined both a daytime and a night-time texture here.
However (and this is the important part!), both are identical.

This appears to cause previous versions of openBVE to draw the polygon with no lighting applied.

The 'new' renderer on the other hand currently draws the polygon twice but the differing brightness levels on the same texture are glitching out depending on the movement of the camera.


Not sure quite how to fix this at the minute-
The current behaviour would seem to me to be a bug, but it's a longstanding one on which graphical effects / decisions may have been based. I could disable the lighting calculations for these faces (easy), but that then means a workaround is needed in new objects.

At the minute, today's build implements the fixed lighting. Feedback needed please as to whether this is the way forward Smile

A couple of screenshots to demonstrate what I mean:
New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? PhQb0Gy
New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? JdrCTrR
After fixing- This is the technically 'correct' lighting


New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? 1A1Qh2S
New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? 4Px6VMb
Older versions behaviour (full lighting ignoring ambient conditions)

leezer3

Posts : 1802
Join date : 2011-08-23

http://www.bvecornwall.co.uk

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by JW555 Thu Dec 26, 2019 2:35 pm

Chris

I get 10-20 fps on Portarlington with v.1.7.1.0 as compared with 40-50 fps on 1.7.0.3.

Also with 1.7.1.0 the viewing distance stays fairly short with no effect if I change to a higher value in the options menu.

I have PC with AMD processor with, I think, an integrated graphics chip, so not expecting much!

I haven't tried your latest nightly build properly. Tried simply overwriting current openBVE folder, but some files could not be overwritten. Gone back to 1.7.0.3 for the moment.

Thanks for all the work you're doing to keep OpenBVE going.

Merry Christmas

JW555

Posts : 9
Join date : 2019-10-30

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by Quork Thu Dec 26, 2019 4:33 pm

Uneducated shot in the dark: Could it be the new renderer makes better use of current OpenGL commands, which forces some onboard chipsets (which tend to support only arbitrary subsets of commands) into emulation mode or other highly inefficient alternatives?
Quork
Quork

Posts : 1395
Join date : 2012-05-05
Age : 30
Location : Hofheim a.T., Hessen (Hesse), European Union

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by leezer3 Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:21 pm

Short answer is yes but no Razz
The 'new' renderer is only using a 10 year old openGL subset as opposed to 20 year old......

The problem appears to be that in it's originally built state, the new renderer and associated backend changes are less efficient with certain workloads, specifically as far as I can see a high number of static alpha faces.
On the other hand, it's *much* better at handling large numbers of dynamic faces (e.g. high-poly trains / animated objects). Most of my initial test trains were high poly with 3D cabs, areas where it excels, hence no real effect on FPS.

TLDR:
Some developers make much greater use of features than others, and it's a lot of the reason why it's really hard to test this until it gets into the wild.
Unfortunately, we're still at a size where community feedback on the test builds is limited Sad

Some Numbers:
The FPS state is as follows at the start in-cab on my box:

Portarlington
1.7.0.3-
~160
Current build-
~130

Nagyborzsony
1.7.0.3-
~90
Current build-
~60

Plymouth
1.7.0.3-
~190
Current build-
~170

NWM- Class 47 Railtour
1.7.0.3-
~75
Current build-
~75

However, externally with some higher poly stuff shows a different picture:
Plymouth
1.7.0.3-
~100
Current build-
~150

Portarlington
1.7.0.3-
~130
Current build-
~130

NWM- Class 47 Railtour
1.7.0.3-
~30
Current build-
~50

-----

Build from today fixes the limit posts and viewing distance options.
Will try and get some more performance out of it over the next few days; Hopefully can get it absolutely level with the old renderer.

An updated release will hopefully be pushed over the new year.

leezer3

Posts : 1802
Join date : 2011-08-23

http://www.bvecornwall.co.uk

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by LXQt Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:10 pm

Tried the new build(2019-12-24), now I've seen some improvement on fps(boosted a few fps) compared to v1.7.0.3
Winsome M-train V1.0 with Tsuen Wan Line:
v1.7.0.3: 20-24fps
new build: 27-30fps

British Rail (Western Region) High Speed Train:
v1.7.0.3: 9-12fps
new build: 14-16fps

Not a "very" surprising fps change, but definitely some improvement

Still lighting is my main concern, now I've seen some route's platform being darken(but it won't "glitch out", just darken), and it's only 1 specific platform object, not sure if it's my computer's configuration or it's an issue for everyone.

LXQt

Posts : 107
Join date : 2019-02-18
Age : 16
Location : Hong Kong

https://kennyhui.pp.ua

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by leezer3 Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:33 pm

I haven't got the Tsuen Wan line here (This was a BVEHK route I think, and their site appears to be gone?), but trying the Winsome M-train on the South Island line, gives me the following figures:
1.7.0.3
~60fps
1.7.1.0
~60fps
Current (29th December) build
~100fps


Essentially, the more animated objects you've got, the bigger the boost.

If you could give me a link to the route which you think the platform lighting is out, I can investigate, but without being able to reproduce it here, it's rather hard to figure out what's actually going on, as the train you provided above proves Razz

---

Build from today fixes the old renderer so that backgrounds etc. work correctly, but has no real speed changes. There's also been some messing with how fog interacts with additively blended lights, but I can't see that having an effect on a platform face.

leezer3

Posts : 1802
Join date : 2011-08-23

http://www.bvecornwall.co.uk

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by LXQt Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:52 am

Tsuen Wan Line: HKRSC made an pack with all MTR Route, and it's included in there. Although it got refurbished, I don't really see many difference apart from working platform screen doors and platform gates.

For the route that has been darken, here, the first platform(now I am thinking is it because I edited the route and somehow caused this glitch Razz)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pu-26jY8jFZ28Md6JPNDMurZOIaymPbW/view
Unfortunately this route works way better on v1.7.0.3
HKHOS KTL 2018 Trial w/ MTR C-train
v1.7.0.3: 24fps
latest build: 9-10fps
and of course here is the picture of the glitched part:
New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Et62PWB

LXQt

Posts : 107
Join date : 2019-02-18
Age : 16
Location : Hong Kong

https://kennyhui.pp.ua

Back to top Go down

New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build? Empty Re: New renderer cannot be disabled in v1.7.1.0 and daily build?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum