uk train developers and their future

All I would like to add is this. What's past is past and done. The only value of it being remembered is for the same mistakes not to be repeated. It is time to move on.

Well put!

I mean, look, most of us are getting on with the job. We help each other and behave in a civil manner. We aren't remotely interested in these personal quarrels and it is unfair that they should be thrown at us all the time. Let those who wish to quarrel do so in private if they must. It is selfish and inconsiderate of them to spoil the enjoyment of the rest. At least, that's how I feel about it and I'm sick of seeing all this claptrap going on.
Sorry, but that's how I feel about it all, it's upsetting.

agreed!, Lets work hard to get everyone to work as a nice happy team

In this new found spirit of respect and honesty, I would like to add some points. I have not made a public statement on the issues that have been arising, as quite frankly, there was no point and it is far to boring! However, since I have the time.....

Most of you will remember who I am, If you don't. I used to run Bveroutes-trains.co.uk (and yes the closure is explained later) on behalf of Rich H for around a year or two, when Rich lost interest. In that time I created many things such as the new C Stock - in partnership with Karlneils H&C. In my time I have also created the Updated Victoria Line, 1967 stock, 1992 Stock and Central Line.

I know the intentions of what went on, there were always long standing battles between certain developers. These would go on for months, untouched for months, then flare up months later.

Michelle's attitude is that OpenBVE is her project, and quite rightly she has the right to remove what she wants from her forum. I do not agree with comparing to a Nazi style, but that gives the totally wrong message about the professionalism and level of interest she wants from the project. If her forum was a collection of rants, nobody would want to use it, which would mean less support for the program, and it would give the program a worse image if all and sundry were posting 'crap' on, and about her project.

For some reason, there were more hostilities ever since the closure of TSC forums, changing hands - people wanting the Olympic torch to hold for themselves, when none of them could 'hack' it. Many moons ago there were, as has been said before, many threads and posts on the TSC forum, and if you didn't visit daily, you would miss out! Many people would ask interesting questions and developers would give good screenshots, and lots of development would go on. Very much active and things would be released within a month of announcement or so. It was regarded as the place to be in the UK for BVE. Ever since the TTF BVE scene shut down to inactivity of the site, so did CroTrainz, so did TSC forum, (old) BRT forum (pre 2009),so did The BVE Forums, BVE-Terminus and BVE-Exchange. Railuk and themessroom are only small discussions not really aimed at sims but more like real life railways. Only around 6 months ago did I delete my account from Railuk - Lack of interest! BveStation seems ok, but again, full of people that are too quick to slate Michelle. Over the years, my interest for the forums has declined, they all eventually come to an outcome of closure. But the reason for closure can be varied and in some cases, interesting.

Ever since the loss of TSC forums, there was a downhill, there was no stable place for BVE discussion to take place. Things were getting biased, the public lost faith, moving around from server to server, forums not lasting for more than 9 months at a time, even then - struggling.

People who were well known in BVE just left and over time, developers were getting thin. We had people like Tom Beevers, Kelvin Liu, Richard Chusney, Tom Carins, John Owen, James Galbraith, Adam Priseman, Richard Heliwell, Steve Green, Miles Codrington, Phillip So, Dan Lewis (the list continues...). These people disappear and the legacy material is gone with them, there has to be a reason why most of these people left.

Now what do we have left to show for it? No TSC, bve4.net, bveroutes-trains, bve4trains..... now practically nothing. SHame its come to this but this is the decision of not one person, but many people.

If any of you were wondering about the closure of BRT, well. I was passed on some screenshots which were, well, without putting it bluntly, taking the mick. I forwarded these on to Richard Heliwell, with my personal view on the situation and what should be done. We came to the agreement that BRT was being abused by certain people and no longer was serving the purpose that it was intended for. The 'community' had a new changing face, and BRT was not 'apart of that' according to the leaders of this new face. Rather than fight it, or get a one up on someone? It was shut and no further comment was made on mine and Rich's behalf for some time. However, there were others who were fighting (not on our behalf I might add), but in anger and agreement around the same issues as we did, which eventually has lead to the situation we have now.

What Open and BVE needs is these individual sites back again. We should encourage sites like CentralBVE, JubileeBVE. Admittly they have not go too much to offer, but they will in time if they are committed. Its these individual sites that we all used to have around 3 years ago. They started going and it went down from there. BVE should not, and should never have one 'big domain' for routes. Addons should be separated so that if one does go down, the whole of BVE in the UK is not effected. Only around 1/100 of it is (assuming you have 100 sites!) It has been proved that nobody can be trusted with a large domain and we should learn from that. Bring back individuals work to indivdual sites and BVE will regrow. But no sites on a massive scale just yet. Foundations need to be re-laid.

Again, in all honesty, I do not believe that a certain person has nothing to do with this forum. I have my suspicions, and always will - nothing will change that, nor others. As far as I am concerned, if you tell only 1/2 of the truth, that is a lie - and somewhere in between there is deception. It is far better to air things than hide them (Unless of course they contravene the forums rules...). Which is why I encourage this new attitude of openeness.

To move on properly, a good discussion needs to take place, in BVE there have been too many cover ups and lack of information.

These are just my slants on the situation, and they are open for interpretation and criticism.

Thank you,

Dan

I agree with you - the things that happen need to be discussed - but the problem of late is that there are those who do not wish to do so in a civil manner, in order to overcome these differences to move on.

But there is a fire that won't die out - and that fire represents a recent attitude which wasn't there before. Are some of these developers communicating too little, or are the communicating too much?

All manners of the community's past mistakes need to be discussed openly in detail for us to progress forward and rebuild bridges. We need to be honest with each other and put it as it is, I don't think we can sink much lower.

I'm not innocent in all this, I've caused BVE some issues in the past but I would like to share my mistakes and lessons so we don't go back there.

I think the best attitude is not pointing out what "others have done wrong", but what "I have done wrong", since everybody should know his/her own mistakes best... and it will be also a good test on how serious you are with the honesty and open attitude. There is no better way to learn how to live with each other and start that bridge rebuilding.
Therefore, I'd suggest saying what each of you could have done better... speak for yourself.

In the past I was too tight and outspoken on copyright. Let's simplify things, credit where credit is due - no need to seek permissions and allow/deny them based on who it is. Any content submitted should be freeware and the above should apply! Development could progress far better.

It would be worthwhile to analyze what has gone wrong previously, and then efforts can be made to avoid those pitfalls.

As an example, to me it seems that many of the rows have been about copyright. Personally, I wouldn't be concerned about anyone copying my work, and I wouldn't ask for permission to use it. But I would like to be credited, and I wouldn't like someone to claim it as their own work. A possible solution to this is publication: if I publish a creation on a website, it can be date-stamped, so any further work is either my own or it is plagiarism.

We need to be constructive here: let's list the pitfalls, and discuss the solutions.

We also need to respect an authors decision to publish, withdraw or where they choose to host their work and not get personal about it.

Egg made a good point which has been made before regarding copyright - people should be free to use it provided they credit the photographs, etc that they used - simply because it can be often very difficult for some developers to get the photos they need for their work - often involving extra expenses in order to - for example - travel to a certain part of a country to take the photo they need.

This is a straight forward process - as developers have their names on the work they've added - but perhaps developers need to add a 'credits' file listing who developed what? After all, some credits for objects in CSV files can be difficult to track, as so many objects can be used.

This is why I'd rather develop my own route than develop trains - because so many objects go into train cab design - elements of plugins sometimes have different developers.

Might I suggest that, as the material for BVE is intended to be freeware, anybody who would object to free use of their material ought not to make it available in the first place.
While agreeing wholeheartedly that further use should be credited as a matter of honour and decency.
If this principle was accepted it would prevent disputes over copyright, which have caused much strife in the past.
That would mean accepting that if you or I release an item it may be used by ANYBODY without argument or dissent, whether we have had a quarrel with them in the past or even if we dislike them for some personal reason.
What is given will be done with good grace and without strings attached for the benefit of the WHOLE community, nobody excepted.
Can we live by that ethos, brothers and sisters?
If we can there will be no more squabbling, if we don't . . . . . . . .
It's up to us to decide, sooner rather than later. And I should not need to remind anyone that the very best items which have been created for the sim, and indeed the program itself, have been given unselfishly in this way. Not to follow this example is an unfitting way to show gratitude and respect.

I don't think a lot of people would mind their objects being used provided they are credited - I wouldn't mind people using any of my own photos in their routes without asking me, so long as I'm credited for them - but that's just me.

More or less, I think that's the logic we need to adopt - because asking others has been the problem recently - because with things as they've been - people HAVE to email the original creator - sometime really messing up a good work to pass it off as their own work, simply because for some reason or another - be it fear of contacting somebody for the first time...or...I don't know, they just don't want to email the original developer.

Plus, I think we should also look into creating more tutorials. The more people we have developing new routes, new objects etc the better - because with more information, more people are likely to try putting things together - and the longer the spend doing this, the less chance there is of us seeing a repeat of recent months - and instead we'd end up with people talking more - asking more questions and guidance on putting their work together.

Yes, when I suggest that consent for use of any released material should be presumed, it is very important that original makers are credited. That is the only rule we should need. And if that came about and was observed strictly by all of us then there would never be the need for another war over copyright.
It's a really simple arrangement, and all you need to know is, if you want to keep it to yourself and not share it with everybody else, THEN DON'T MAKE IT AVAILABLE!! Because otherwise its as bad as the spoilt children in the playground, whingeing, "I'm not going to let you play with MY ball!!!" Simples!!

As for tutorials. There was a simple guide to object building which was going to be put on the BVEScene, now lost. But I do know where it is available, you will find it downloadable from graymacs site if you want it. (google "Ballyfeckin"). Links to Luigi Cartellos object building and Dennis Lance's Route Building are on Easypeasy's pages http://www.eezypeazy.co.uk/ . Perhaps a page of useful links such as those might be incuded here?? (are you reading this, Derryck??).

New developers will emerge, we hope sooner rather than later, but it takes time to learn. The reality is also that some of the best ones haven't actually gone away, you know. As long as good sense and generosity prevails the greater UK community can emerge from the current sad state and it will thrive again. Best to hope for would be a mixture of old faces and new and an absence of the mean spirited sorts who would drag us all down. There could be a better and stronger community, which will be a community both in name and nature.

Making a rule that makers are to be credited is good, but enforcing it isn't easy. It would require the cooperation of the website owners where the copied work is hosted- proof of ownership would be by comparing the dates of first publication.
Dealing with non-cooperative website owners is a problem- perhaps the solution would be to remove any link to their website.

Turning aside from copyright, another problem seems to be the heated arguments aired in public on the forums, which create a general bad feeling. Again, no simple solution, as discussions do need to be public. Perhaps the forum administrator could delete heated posts, and put the participants in contact with each other to thrash it out. The administrator could post a notice telling that the discussion is taking place, and report any worthwhile outcome.

Well, the rule can be made. Enforcement isn't the point anyway. We are the citizens, not the police. It's a matter of establishing a good principle by which to exist. Society has rules and laws, they are broken all the time by some people. But the majority abide by them and order is generally the outcome. Which is what we're hoping for, isn't it? And, on the subject of police, what we don't want is a sort of "BVE Police", or individuals playing at being 'bve vigilantes'. That's exactly the sort of thing that pours petrol on the flames of the bloody arguments and fights.

What I am proposing goes beyond copyright. It's more radical. I'm saying NO copyright, NO ownership and if you don't like it then don't put your material where others can have it. You place material for use by other unconditionally and for free. It is a gift. I know am saying the unthinkable to some. I really am saying Forget Copyright I am waving the bloody enormous collecting box under every person's nose, who calls themselves a developer, and saying "GIVE!!" Of course, the best ones already have but any others, for who it may have slipped their memory, now's the chance to do so.

Unless something as simple, yet bold, as this idea is not taken up I predict the demise of the sim. I don't say this lightly as the following quote will demonstrate (I hope Derryck will excuse me the liberty of posting this quote from Michelle on OBVE today):

BVE Trainsim is neither open source software, not free software nor anything else in this direction. It is as proprietary as it can get, in stark contrast to openBVE, which is free. I agree that all openBVE add-ons should be free as well, but unfortunately, I have no control over that. My attempts to persuade add-on developers to change their attitude during the last three years did not catch on, and with one exception, there are currently no free add-ons for openBVE.

More depressingly, the norm is increasingly becoming that add-on developers lease their add-ons during a limited trial period before removing them from the public again. A lot of recent events have prompted me to try making a last effort to change this, and I hope that at least some add-on developers will agree that a change of their proprietary attitudes is urgently necessary. Because if they don't, this simulator is dead. - Michelle, on Openbve forum Sun 7 August

In answer to Egg's second point, the forum rules (rule 2 in particular) don't permit arguments or fights being conducted openly. If one was being conducted by PM it would be wrong to broadcast the fact. PM is private and should remain so.
Administration has the power to remove unfit material posted. If any of us think a post should not have been placed then all that needs doing is to report it and leave it to Derryck to deal with.

What's it gonna be, guys??

I don't think we could ever really end up with a 'BVE police' - as things stand with the forms currently out there, they can simply lock out people who constantly instigate arguments.

Whilst I agree with you about copyrighting - I still think photography credits are due to those who took the photographs - simply because as I've already pointed out, some users really do go to amazing lengths to get the images they need. I'm not saying they could be approached for every use age - just simply credited. Some photographers - such as myself - might not mind as much - it's really down to personal circumstances.

But I'm just talking about routes and objects here - whilst the above applies to train development, in addition train developers seem to have had - since openBVE came about - the problem of users taking other works, and passing them off as their own - in some cases I've seen on US forums, degrading work in order to pass it off as their own!

I think it's pretentious acts such as this - on what is a freeware add-on - that people are just not tolerating - because that isn't what BVE is about - BVE is about just producing things. It isn't really about the big names - whom are aliases anyway. It's not 'who' - it's 'what'. For many years now this has been the case, and the BVE community has been about this without issue.

This is about sharing an interest and hobby - would you all not agree?

I think my words may have been taken in the wrong spirit. I agree with both the above posts- I wasn't suggesting BVE police, merely pointing out that laws which are not enforceable are not worth making- perhaps "guidance" would be a better word.
Basically, I'm trying to promote discussion into ways in which the disease which has spread so rapidly can be predicted and stopped.
Certainly, I agree with Wheeltapper's ethic of giving freely, but that would require those giving freely to accept someone else getting credit for their work.

I don't know what the answer is, but I am inclined to think that strict control of a forum and/or website would at least part of the answer

What's more important. Producing something of quality which can be shared with others? Or producing something to use as a stick to beat others with while boosting your ego?
Lets look at the facts of BVE life. If you are interested in creating something you will do it. Michelle, I would suspect, created the programme for her own amusement in the first place. That she saw fit to generously make it available to all, completely free, is our good fortune. And a little more gratitude from some quarters would not be out of order.
Anthony Bowden has endowed the community with some splendid work, quite unselfishly. So have the TSC team.
Look at some of the pillars, the very foundations on which this sim is based, and you see exactly what OpenBVE is all about.

Now when I mention the above I am talking about giants. But if the rest of us, the minor players, the would-be new developers, cannot follow the example of these giants then where does that leave us? I will tell you.
It leaves us in the state of fragrant manure that the common UK scene has got into today. Wallowing in a mire of ego massaging by mean-spirited nonentities who would like nothing better than to drag the whole lot of us down to a permanent state of brawling and arguing and nothing whatsoever of any merit being produced. And who would want to join such a happy band of pilgrims? So you can then kiss your arse goodbye to any thought of attracting talent. The whole UKBVE environment is polluted and nothing will survive in it.

And what's the value of this copyright crap? Fine if you stand to make some money out of it. But you don't. It's irrelevant. The stuff's free. And if you reckon you're any good as a developer ask yourself this question: Would my work be recognised? Even if I didn't fill the folder with read-me's and copyright threats.
If you think the answer to that question is "Yes", you have made enough of an impact by your labours to wallow in satisfaction sufficient for any normal ego. If you want more, tough!! Consider NOT releasing stuff and join the selfish squad.

Now, once again. Who's subscribing to the "We Love Totally Free BVE" campaign? In the UK, or indeed anywhere else??
And Derryck might offer his opinion as a developer, when he's back from vacation (don't get sunburn!!)

wheeltapper wrote:Now when I mention the above I am talking about giants. But if the rest of us, the minor players, the would-be new developers, cannot follow the example of these giants then where does that leave us? I will tell you.
It leaves us in the state of fragrant manure that the common UK scene has got into today. Wallowing in a mire of ego massaging by mean-spirited nonentities who would like nothing better than to drag the whole lot of us down to a permanent state of brawling and arguing and nothing whatsoever of any merit being produced. And who would want to join such a happy band of pilgrims? So you can then kiss your arse goodbye to any thought of attracting talent. The whole UKBVE environment is polluted and nothing will survive in it.

And what's the value of this copyright crap? Fine if you stand to make some money out of it. But you don't. It's irrelevant. The stuff's free. And if you reckon you're any good as a developer ask yourself this question: Would my work be recognised? Even if I didn't fill the folder with read-me's and copyright threats.
If you think the answer to that question is "Yes", you have made enough of an impact by your labours to wallow in satisfaction sufficient for any normal ego. If you want more, tough!! Consider NOT releasing stuff and join the selfish squad.

Now, once again. Who's subscribing to the "We Love Totally Free BVE" campaign? In the UK, or indeed anywhere else??
And Derryck might offer his opinion as a developer, when he's back from vacation (don't get sunburn!!)

I am in total disagreement with what you say. The majority (90%) of developers do not do it for recognition purposes, or even to feel overshadowed by people like Michelle. I did not, and do not. There are going to be people in life that are both/ either higher and/ or lower than you - Lower/higher standards, more/less money, better/worse jobs, more/less effort at well, anything. For example a Cleaner against a Doctor. Ethically they are the same, modern society deems them totally opposite. But we still cannot live without both of them. Streets/ Parks need cleaning and people need saving. After all, if you were apart of a model club, would you feel overshadowed by the chairman? No, quite frankly you see past it in life that there are others above and below you. We are all here out of the enjoyment of our time. More or less, people know their place - I know mine. Respect is earned not just gained because you made something, been around for a while, made a few friends, etc. This attitude I mention above is not present in your statements and style of writing. You seem to have a lot of negative previous experiences of working within BVE, which has not changed much in your posting style in this thread - Despite a few people mentioning that we need to discuss these things constructively/ properly to move on.

Copyright is not something you can have one view in a pot and brush over all the developers with the same view and expect them all to take it and abide/ follow it. Everybody has their own views on how they should release work. They are entitled to as this is a free speech society. Putting copyright headers, mentioning copyright on the website, placing a header which states I must be contacted first, etc, or even no copyright at all - To name but a few examples. By just putting copyright in the header does not entitle you to very much, in this life you have to pay to get anywhere! The laws are very sketchy around this topic. (I am not going to waste time by mentioning law in depth, its pointless for this game anyway) I have no intention of taking in depth about copyright as it is not the future of the simulator. Copyright threats? That is giving the user or would be new developer already a scared image of what your work means when they edit it or want to ask permissions?

I coined my feelings on copyright from others who were in the same situation (Kelvin, Tom Beevers, Richard Heliwell...) It worked for them, and its worked for me (Just by placing it in the header, asking for an email saying that "I am using your work" Something along those lines, if I can remember) I have had some very supportive emails of my work, and lots of requests for use for my work. All granted. Bar one (who didn't ask). Which was someone who ripped off my work on another website. I sent one email, with no response back and the site was gone within a few hours (this was about a year ago). Creating the work was great, as a bonus people know I created what I did and I am happy for that!

We also need to respect an authors decision to publish, withdraw or where they choose to host their work and not get personal about it.

Precisely. I could not agree more. This is one the attitudes certain people need to take. This bad attitude which apparently is affecting the whole of BVE in the UK, is actually not. It is only a select few which could not get their way and are making others pay for decisions they have made. Most of the people in BVE are actually very sensible and are well respected and stay out of this.

This may be a long discussion after all!

Dan

Wheeltapper - I think you misread what I meant - which was that there are those out there who are happy for their work to be used by others - copyright free, and without being asked, (well...that might just be me...). It's just nice to find out where it's being used in order to see how it's helping the community put together the things it's been putting together.

More or less what Dan said though - which is that developers need to be respected as well - they are putting in effort for nothing in return and sharing things with the world. It's nice to collaborate and exchange ideas - and from what I've seen, a lot of developers like to do this.

It's just bizarre that there are people out there who act like this - it's almost trolling-like behavior. But we need to face the fact that there are people like this - and the best thing to counter-act this activity is to lock out individuals who do this - if we ignore them publicly - along with this behavior, and take measures in a private matter against those who misuse the community - they'll eventually go elsewhere.

You seem to be saying that the old spectre of copyright is problematic Dan. And indeed it is. Which is why I am advocating an acceptance that copyright claims should be obliterated from all work freely given for the use with the BVE simulator. I do say authorship should be credited, though that condition cannot be enforced. (never could, never will!!)
Now, you are a developer and as such your opinion is relevant. And I ask you, would you willingly place your work in the public domain, freely and voluntarily with that understanding? Or would you decline to make your work available if those were the prevailing conditions?

It's just that it appears the Titanic's going down, and it would be nice to know which side you are on?

And as your crystal ball is telling you who I am then I don't need to. But for the unpsychic among us, or those who forgot their ouija board when they left the house, just know that I have produced a fair bit of BVE content.
You mention negative experiences? The only negative experience I have had with BVE is the disappointment in seeing the ingratitude of a small number of mean and miserable ingrates who would spoil it all for the majority by their appalling squabbling and mindless disregard for the enjoyment of others. And I have never lost any sleep over anyone "nicking" my stuff. Once I give it it is out of my hands. The only maxim I observe is that "You're only as good as your last project".

Your call!

D Stock Dan wrote:
Again, in all honesty, I do not believe that this certain person has nothing to do with this forum. I have my suspicions, and always will - nothing will change that, nor others. As far as I am concerned, if you tell only 1/2 of the truth, that is a lie - and somewhere in between there is deception.

I will repeat once again. Mr Alan Wheeler IS NOT member of this forum. Shall I see his name mentioned once again, the person who is responsible for this will receive a 7 days ban. I am really running out of the patience; if you don't trust the word of the administrator, who has told you AW is not present on this forum like 5 times, you suffer with a persecution complex and it is about time to find a qualified help.

FOR THE LAST TIME. ALAN WHEELER IS NOT A MEMBER OF THIS FORUM, HAS NO INFLUENCE ON ITS RUNNING AND DOES NOT WISH HIS NAME TO BE CONNECTED WITH SIMULATOR ANYMORE. SO LIVE WITH IT, SAVE DOUBTS FOR SOMETHING ELSE AND DON'T BOTHER US WITH BASELESS ...

I hope that makes it clear enough. By the way, it is quite sad we hadn't had a post in the development section for almost a week, whilst here people talk about other people, who are not present. How interesting is that.