openBVE 1.5.0 RC1 - BUGS

So it seems like this version doesn't write logs, I was able neither to find it, nor to reproduce the bug again, the train keeps loading fine everywhere. That's weird...

Looking into the TKK-8590, I can see the panel images are 2048px bitmaps at 12mb each.

There is a hard-timeout of 1s for loading an image (I've come across a couple of corrupt images that hang the load process), possibly this needs to be increased slightly.
I'd suspect that once loaded, it's probably being cached somewhere by the runtime, even between program loads and reloads.

leezer3 wrote:Looking into the TKK-8590, I can see the panel images are 2048px bitmaps at 12mb each.

There is a hard-timeout of 1s for loading an image (I've come across a couple of corrupt images that hang the load process), possibly this needs to be increased slightly.
I'd suspect that once loaded, it's probably being cached somewhere by the runtime, even between program loads and reloads.

Thanks, that explains it   2 sec limit should work

Wouldn't it be possible to have a dynamic timeout? I'm thinking along the lines of reading file size (would a timeout be sensible for this already, or can you depend on the OS delivering a file size in short time?), determining a timeout for reading the file based on the file size, loading the file.

Sir Chris Lees

I did download your version just new of today 4th March
I did test several trains, with this windows 7 popup error and program lockup
"Unhandles Windows Exception" with the red X on the train menu image picture
I do not have this error from your version of yesterday
I did several trains try
it does error if a train with a train.bmp that is images multiple
it does not error if a train with a train.bmp is one only image

Good day and night for you
Hijau

Tested that, same happens to me

Sir Delsin
Yes that is the error same I do have here

Good day and night for you
Hijau

Sir Chris Lees

I do find your version of 1 March is good without unhandled error
though your version of 2 March is not good
and your version of 4 March is not good

I do think when Route.Image is the gif
or when train.bmp is the gif
of multiple images is the error

Good day and night for you
Hijau

OK, I see what's gone wrong, and have reverted that.

Was trying to be a little too clever whilst trying to fix the Mac bug elsewhere...

I've also made a small change for this build, so that if something which is not a route or train is selected (a folder basically), the 'Start' button is disabled, and the details pane is hidden

Quork wrote:Wouldn't it be possible to have a dynamic timeout? I'm thinking along the lines of reading file size (would a timeout be sensible for this already, or can you depend on the OS delivering a file size in short time?), determining a timeout for reading the file based on the file size, loading the file.

Let me think on that one
It's a little more complex than it sounds, as the image load is first spun off to a plugin, which is an entirely separate process. After this, the resultant texture object is passed back to the main render-loop in order to be loaded by openGL.

The short answer therefore, is that you can't rely on anything, hence the arbitrary timeout

Sir Chris Lees
I do find now your version late on the 4 March
does not now have unhandled error though the route and the train menu
does not show display the route.image, it is space gray blank
does not show display the train.bmp, it is space gray blank
does load route and the train and will run good ok without unhandled error
just no image menu show

Good day and night for you
Hijau

I really think your making an error here, Chris.

Make a version that works fine in Windows, not one that works in every OS.

Then adapt it for the other OS's and release them as separate versions for that OS.

Also it would be nice that your latest version, does not alter any settings in older versions of Open Bve so they don't work any more.

How many people have found that the older versions they have downloaded no longer work and have left Open Bve? 

Or spent a lot of time removing what they have downloaded before and have to download them again?

I fear they may have just given up with it.

Stevegr wrote:I really think your making an error here, Chris.

Make a version that works fine in Windows, not one that works in every OS.

Then adapt it for the other OS's and release them as separate versions for that OS.

Also it would be nice that your latest version, does not alter any settings in older versions of Open Bve so they don't work any more.

How many people have found that the older versions they have downloaded no longer work and have left Open Bve? 

Or spent a lot of time removing what they have downloaded before and have to download them again?

I fear they may have just given up with it.

That's why there are nightly builds, and the recommended 'stable' builds. The bug being discussed above is **not** in the stable build linked from the main download page.
Windows is important, but we also have a lot of users who are on other operating systems, more than you think

As I don't have access to every combination of system, or for that matter the means to reproduce every bug, the nightly builds aren't always 100% perfect, and aren't recommended as the standard download, but are automatically built with the latest changes. (Sometimes experimental when I'm trying to get to the bottom of a bug I can't reproduce personally)

This is standard practice for every open-source project, and I can't see how I could do it differently.
Edit: Having said that, I've added a small disclaimer to the nightly builds link.


Stable builds of 1.5.0.10 and onwards do not alter the settings for previous versions of openBVE- As soon as I realized that was an issue for some users, it was changed.
To the best of my knowledge, it contains no 'breaking' bugs on Windows.

HijauKuda wrote:Sir Chris Lees
I do find now your version late on the 4 March
does not now have unhandled error though the route and the train menu
does not show display the route.image, it is space gray blank
does not show display the train.bmp, it is space gray blank
does load route and the train and will run good ok without unhandled error
just no image menu show

Good day and night for you
Hijau

Should now work, entirely my fault

Stevegr wrote:....does not alter any settings in older versions of Open Bve so they don't work any more

How many people have found that the older versions they have downloaded no longer work and have left Open Bve?

I've seen dark comments and doom-saying about this before- vague things about sounds or the weather, but nobody has ever said exactly how that manifests itself and I've not noticed it myself so it'd be interesting to know.  I've seen addons describes as "designed to run on version x.x.x" when ther person designing the addon would be very unlikely to know how the program works to tailor an addon to that so I'm always wary of such claims.

In any case, would it be worth detailing these issues thoroughly for reference?  That way Chris has a point of reference for those, if it is a long term issue?  That way it's less likely to end up as a built-in bug through not being reported clearly?

I can see your point about the re-downloading, but I think it's fair to say that since development of the actual program restarted but I'd imagine it will get to the stage where, like before, updates will be less frequent.



As to older versions no longer working, I don't quite see what you mean there- are you saying that previous versions of oBVE that people have already installed on their PC did work and have now stopped working?  Or that previously installed add-ons did work biut now do not?  A change of operability on an already installed version sounds curious, to say the least.

I was under the impression we all knew that we were downloading a developing program, but there are sites out there that offer a previous version that the site owner considers to be the definitive stable version.

Sir Chris Lees
I do find now your version of today 5 March
does work corrected with the route.image and the train.bmp
show display of these images in the route and train menu
without the unhandled error crash

Sir Stevegr
I do find my frustration with new change and difficult as you do
I do propose you encourage to speak with Sir Chris Lees, he does work fast,
of the detailed item program changes that do have problems
I find your trains very good and do enjoy
Both Sir Chris Lees and Sir Stevegr work hard many hours on things
I do wish yourselves in cooperative

Good day and night for you
Hijau

I made a test train with 3-part horn and it's a really nice feature! But there's a very short, but noticeable pause between start and loop sounds, they don't seem to be "snapped" together.

UPD: tried different sounds and turns out, it works okay when sounds are long enough (over ~3 secs)
But if you try to blow it again while "release" part is still playing (there's 3 seconds of silence in the end of the file so bve snaps sounds correctly), you won't hear anything, only the "release" sound will repeat in the end. I guess if you push horn button while the end part is still playing, it should interrupt it and repeat the sequence (start then looping sound, until it's released again)

I'd actually suspect your sounds have a couple of frames of silence in them
It doesn't actually blend the start/ end of the two sounds, but rather stops the initial sound and immediately starts the new one.
(Blending is a pain in the neck unless we specify a fixed sound length so that we always know what to blend)

Any chance of posting them so I can take a look?

leezer3 wrote:I'd actually suspect your sounds have a couple of frames of silence in them
It doesn't actually blend the start/ end of the two sounds, but rather stops the initial sound and immediately starts the new one.
(Blending is a pain in the neck unless we specify a fixed sound length so that we always know what to blend)

Any chance of posting them so I can take a look?

No need for blending, just the start of the loop part (and sometimes the end one) is no so immediate, I get a silent frame. Sounds should be okay, you can check them.
I'll attach two test trains in a couple of minutes here, first has lengthened to 3-4 sec sounds, second is almost as-is, with original sound cut into 3 without any other manipulations 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lf6t0nlvrrcvx6j/testtrains.zip?dl=0

There are 2 trains:
113 uses sounds edited to be at least 1 second long. (WARNING: they may be a bit too loud, you may want to turn the volume down slightly.) Release sound is now 1 sec instead of 3.8.
8000 simply has its original horn cut into 3 parts (although loop sound is doubled and reversed, so it's less "steppy".) Definitely has silent frames between start and loop. Sound files don't seem to have them.

Found a bug with how openbve "understands" plugins btw. In trta8000, there's an announcement played right after music horn is turned on and off, i.e. key Num - pressed 2 times. That works fine in BVE4 and 5, but in openBVE somehow "music horn" doesn't trigger it, while if you blow secondary horn 2 times, you'll hear that announcement.
Speaking of music horns, I like how it works now (keeping button pressed instead of toggle on-off), that's more prototypical for most cases (especially on Japanese trains), it wouldn't even be a problem with the announcement system I've described above, but when the new train data format comes, there should be an option to use the old behaviour for some train (for example, if it's an American loco with a bell)

Done a little digging-
It looks like your 'hitch' is related to the framerate. The way your two sounds interface is exacerbating it

Essentially, the sound is ending whilst the sim is still processing the frame. The new sound will then not trigger until the next frame.
If you look at the levels of your sound in an editor (e.g. Audacity) , your join is at ~-0.5LU, which means that you've got a gap of a few milliseconds playing silence. With the join at ~0LU, you wouldn't hear the blip nearly so badly.
Your second test blips very slightly here.

I may have to think of a way to blend the ends of the two sounds, depends how audible this blip is in real usage....

leezer3 wrote:Done a little digging-
It looks like your 'hitch' is related to the framerate. The way your two sounds interface is exacerbating it

Essentially, the sound is ending whilst the sim is still processing the frame. The new sound will then not trigger until the next frame.
If you look at the levels of your sound in an editor (e.g. Audacity) , your join is at ~-0.5LU, which means that you've got a gap of a few milliseconds playing silence. With the join at ~0LU, you wouldn't hear the blip nearly so badly.
Your second test blips very slightly here.

I may have to think of a way to blend the ends of the two sounds, depends how audible this blip is in real usage....

I used Audacity too  what does LU level mean, volume?
I think I'll match the sounds better and test again then, thanks!

Also noticed that some old-style horns aren't played correctly, sound cuts as soon as I release the horn key

leez, excuse me, I've now only got time to talk and discuss, and sorry if my post is way too late.

What in the world is this horn system you got going?
Wouldn't it be better in the long run to implememt a system like Bve 5's? One long audio file then a short file for cutting the horn short?
It prevents delays as the horn attack is embedded in the loop, as well as the release (if you hold it too long) and if you release prematurely, it will stop the horn main and play the horn release in the same frame.
Plus, it allows for stuff like a horn that runs out of air quickly and starts to sound like a chicken or a cat, something impossible with Start-loop-end. The only advantage I see in SLE over Bve 5's is that ypu can hold a horn for an infinite amount of time. More than Bve 5's 7 seconds? Thought this was Open-source Bve.

...I have tried to run the Tokyu Toyoko Line in a netbook from 2011 in Bve 5, with amazing 6 fps. The klaxon did not cut when i sounded it.
Anyhow, there's still the legacy klaxon.

Tested old-style one-sound horns again and they don't work as specified. It doesn't just shoot the sound, you need to hold button down for some time or you get the sound "cut". Can you revert to the original behaviour for one-sound horns?

Delsin wrote:Tested old-style one-sound horns again and they don't work as specified. It doesn't just shoot the sound, you need to hold button down for some time or you get the sound "cut". Can you revert to the original behaviour for one-sound horns?

Sorry, this is still slightly broken

1.4.3 and previous builds were somewhat more broken though- Holding down the button in these repeatedly triggered the sound, causing a constant repeating effect, although the sound did run till the end....

leez, excuse me, I've now only got time to talk and discuss, and sorry if my post is way too late.

What in the world is this horn system you got going?
Wouldn't it be better in the long run to implememt a system like Bve 5's? One long audio file then a short file for cutting the horn short?
It prevents delays as the horn attack is embedded in the loop, as well as the release (if you hold it too long) and if you release prematurely, it will stop the horn main and play the horn release in the same frame.
Plus, it allows for stuff like a horn that runs out of air quickly and starts to sound like a chicken or a cat, something impossible with Start-loop-end. The only advantage I see in SLE over Bve 5's is that ypu can hold a horn for an infinite amount of time. More than Bve 5's 7 seconds? Thought this was Open-source Bve.

...I have tried to run the Tokyu Toyoko Line in a netbook from 2011 in Bve 5, with amazing 6 fps. The klaxon did not cut when i sounded it.
Anyhow, there's still the legacy klaxon.

Short answer is definitely not.
If you want horns that run out of air quickly, use a single sound.
IMHO, three part sounds & allowing for an infinite repeat is considerably preferable to two sounds, that just seems a bodge.

I could add a maximum timer for the horn before the loop end is triggered, would that help?


Finally:
This sim diverged from plain BVE many years ago when Michelle introduced external views and animated files.
openBVE probably isn't the absolute best name anymore, but unfortunately the 'brand' is recognised (150+ hits a day just from Google search on the main site).
I'm working towards implementing many of BVE5's features, but frankly it's got just as many limitations (Albeit different ones) as BVE4 had