Trainsimstuff offline?
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Trainsimstuff offline?
by Locomotion Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:31 am
Looking to download NWM to a new build PC and found my link to Trainsimstuff appears to be reporting the site offline, anyone know of the reason?
Loco
Loco
Locomotion- Posts : 30
Join date : 2015-05-28
Re: Trainsimstuff offline?
by Martin Ziegler Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:04 pm
Yes, the domain trainsimstuff.org has gone offline in the last days.
Since today the route is available on my site.
If trainsimstuff.org will go online some time, then I will deactivate my downloads and I will redirect the useres to the site again.
https://sites.google.com/view/openbve-de/download-addons/strecken/strecken-vereinigtes-königreich
Since today the route is available on my site.
If trainsimstuff.org will go online some time, then I will deactivate my downloads and I will redirect the useres to the site again.
https://sites.google.com/view/openbve-de/download-addons/strecken/strecken-vereinigtes-königreich
Martin Ziegler- Posts : 17
Join date : 2017-08-17
Location : Germany -
Re: Trainsimstuff offline?
by call2 Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:03 am
Martin, the latest NWM route files are located at:
https://sites.google.com/a/bve4trains.com/network-west-midlands-2017-work-in-progress/home
It is still a work in progress, and I'm busy preparing another update for release within a couple of weeks. When the WIP is released I'm hoping to put it up on trainsimstuff.org and the bve4trains.com sites.
I would appreciate it if you would just link to these sites and deactivate your NWM downloads.
Cheers.
Tony
https://sites.google.com/a/bve4trains.com/network-west-midlands-2017-work-in-progress/home
It is still a work in progress, and I'm busy preparing another update for release within a couple of weeks. When the WIP is released I'm hoping to put it up on trainsimstuff.org and the bve4trains.com sites.
I would appreciate it if you would just link to these sites and deactivate your NWM downloads.
Cheers.
Tony
call2- Posts : 53
Join date : 2011-08-31
Re: Trainsimstuff offline?
by Martin Ziegler Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:24 am
Thank you for your information.
My Download for the NWM route is deactivated, and the users will be redirected to https://sites.google.com/a/bve4trains.com/network-west-midlands-2017-work-in-progress/ .
One question in the end, why do you offer many zips archives for one route, and don't pack everything in one openbve-route-package?
My Download for the NWM route is deactivated, and the users will be redirected to https://sites.google.com/a/bve4trains.com/network-west-midlands-2017-work-in-progress/ .
One question in the end, why do you offer many zips archives for one route, and don't pack everything in one openbve-route-package?
Martin Ziegler- Posts : 17
Join date : 2017-08-17
Location : Germany -
Re: Trainsimstuff offline?
by call2 Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:02 pm
It's the size of the full NWM suite that prevents a large package. Zip files are much easier to move around.
Although I am an active member of the Train Sim Central team, some of the other TSC members do not have a great deal of time to produce items for BVE. Updates to their routes and trains have not taken place for some years, but Trainsimstuff is still the main site for work by TSC and Steve Green, notably the Northern Line underground and the Southern line. I have a suspicion that Steve has possibly taken the Trainsimstuff website down because if you are going to host his work why should he pay for the TSC website? I know that you are trying to make it easy for new followers of BVE to find routes, but TSC has been around for about fifteen years, (longer perhaps), and we have often been the target for some unscrupulous behaviour. By all means create a website that lists work by developers, but I think that you will probably do more damage by hosting routes that MIGHT be inactive unless you are absolutely sure that the authors give you full permission to do so.
Of course, I could be wrong that Trainsimstuff has been dropped by Steve. I have not had any information from him. It is likely that the website fees were due and it has slipped Steves notice.
Please do not be offended. I understand what you are trying to achieve. I felt that I needed to post something, and give you some friendly advice about hosting other authors work.
Tony
Although I am an active member of the Train Sim Central team, some of the other TSC members do not have a great deal of time to produce items for BVE. Updates to their routes and trains have not taken place for some years, but Trainsimstuff is still the main site for work by TSC and Steve Green, notably the Northern Line underground and the Southern line. I have a suspicion that Steve has possibly taken the Trainsimstuff website down because if you are going to host his work why should he pay for the TSC website? I know that you are trying to make it easy for new followers of BVE to find routes, but TSC has been around for about fifteen years, (longer perhaps), and we have often been the target for some unscrupulous behaviour. By all means create a website that lists work by developers, but I think that you will probably do more damage by hosting routes that MIGHT be inactive unless you are absolutely sure that the authors give you full permission to do so.
Of course, I could be wrong that Trainsimstuff has been dropped by Steve. I have not had any information from him. It is likely that the website fees were due and it has slipped Steves notice.
Please do not be offended. I understand what you are trying to achieve. I felt that I needed to post something, and give you some friendly advice about hosting other authors work.
Tony
call2- Posts : 53
Join date : 2011-08-31
Re: Trainsimstuff offline?
by Martin Ziegler Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:42 pm
Thank you for your critics.
"It's the size of the full NWM suite that prevents a large package. Zip files are much easier to move around."
In my opinion it is harder to install. (Maybe, you could offer both variants
)
"I have a suspicion that Steve has possibly taken the Trainsimstuff website down because if you are going to host his work why should he pay for the TSC website?"
I think, that some authors like him are finished with the topic OpenBVE, and don't want to pay anymore for their websites. (Okay, or it was a temporary mistake)
I completely understand your point. I will just host some route, if the author goes inactive, and his side has been dropped. Before that, I am redirecting users to authors websites. Maybe this article makes it a bit clearer, why I am doing this: https://sites.google.com/view/openbve-de/unsere-mission-our-mission
"but I think that you will probably do more damage by hosting routes that MIGHT be inactive unless you are absolutely sure that the authors give you full permission to do so."
Me was written by more OpenBVElers, that my link to trainsimstuff.org is broken. So I decided to mark this routes abandoned, and I began to create from my original backups from trainsimstuff.org on my harddisk to create the download. In this case I failed because I didn't find your website.. In the future I will check better, when some website has been dropped, if there is't any other author site, that is hosting this abandoned routes.
"Please do not be offended. I understand what you are trying to achieve. I felt that I needed to post something, and give you some friendly advice about hosting other authors work. "
No I am not
Maybe I am not completely understanding your point. Yes. In some cases there will be some faults of me (when I oversee some other author websites), but one short mail, and the issue is fixed.
I hope I could get your point, and explained my opinion well enough.
Have a nice day
"It's the size of the full NWM suite that prevents a large package. Zip files are much easier to move around."
In my opinion it is harder to install. (Maybe, you could offer both variants
)"I have a suspicion that Steve has possibly taken the Trainsimstuff website down because if you are going to host his work why should he pay for the TSC website?"
I think, that some authors like him are finished with the topic OpenBVE, and don't want to pay anymore for their websites. (Okay, or it was a temporary mistake)
I completely understand your point. I will just host some route, if the author goes inactive, and his side has been dropped. Before that, I am redirecting users to authors websites. Maybe this article makes it a bit clearer, why I am doing this: https://sites.google.com/view/openbve-de/unsere-mission-our-mission
"but I think that you will probably do more damage by hosting routes that MIGHT be inactive unless you are absolutely sure that the authors give you full permission to do so."
Me was written by more OpenBVElers, that my link to trainsimstuff.org is broken. So I decided to mark this routes abandoned, and I began to create from my original backups from trainsimstuff.org on my harddisk to create the download. In this case I failed because I didn't find your website.. In the future I will check better, when some website has been dropped, if there is't any other author site, that is hosting this abandoned routes.
"Please do not be offended. I understand what you are trying to achieve. I felt that I needed to post something, and give you some friendly advice about hosting other authors work. "
No I am not
Maybe I am not completely understanding your point. Yes. In some cases there will be some faults of me (when I oversee some other author websites), but one short mail, and the issue is fixed. I hope I could get your point, and explained my opinion well enough.
Have a nice day
Martin Ziegler- Posts : 17
Join date : 2017-08-17
Location : Germany -
Re: Trainsimstuff offline?
by Quork Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:17 pm
[moderative hat for the whole post]
Martin. You've been fired a warning shot ("Schuss vor den Bug" if you will) by a major developer of OpenBVE addons, showing you quite clearly how your sloppy attitude towards copyright is creating problems and endangering peace and progress in the scene. Judging by your reaction you're still not getting it, so let me put this straight and simple:
- basically speaking: a work's owner (or their [language explanation: "they" means "er/sie" in this context] legal representative/s) has the copyright to their work. They decide if they publish their works and if so, under what conditions - in short, what the license is. If there is no license text, terms and conditions or similar, this doesn't mean there are no restrictions. Quite to the contrary this means the work has to be treated in the most restrictive way. So: Unless the work is published under a license stating otherwise (e.g. most CC licenses, Berkeley license, GNU etc.), noone is permitted to upload/share/otherwise distribute the work, safe for the author/s themselves and people they've explicitly permitted to do so. That's the principle.
- it is at the copyright holder's sole discretion to publish, withdraw, republish, change or forget the work (unless stated otherwise by a license). That can be sad for the users, but the users have no rights (unless granted by a license) to the work whatsoever. So if a website goes down this doesn't entitle anybody to anything (unless a license...)!
- now that we've clarified the basics and principles we can talk about some special cases. If there is some really old addon one considers a gem or otherwise important, whose author hasn't been heard of for years, one could maybe start thinking about doing something about this. But this isn't easy and shouldn't be taken on a light shoulder at all. You really have to try all possibilities of reaching the author or looking for representatives (like heirs). This doesn't mean a quick Google search of the original website though. This means months and months of painstakingly meticulous research for the author on all possible ways (including social media, snail mail etc. etc.). And if after all that time you still can't find any contact, and also you can't find any sign (!!!) the work was not merely forgotten/abandoned but withdrawn (in this case the work would be lost without discussion and never to be re-released under any conditions until 60 years after the author's death, unless the author or their heirs decide otherwise), then and only then you could start thinking about hosting it yourself. But this still would not be strictly legal, thus at your sole responsibility, at your own risk and with the distinct possibility the copyright holder/s will get back to you with a more or less friendly (i.e. more or less expensive - for you, that is) answer after all.
- you rehosted works mere days after their original site went down, even failing to notice the, still active, author himself hosts them on a different site. This tells me you haven't encompassed the scope of all the conditions and work necessary to consider something abandonware.
Summa summarum: The way you've been acting and writing, I am coming to the conclusion you're still not grasping the issues and problems we've been trying to explain to you since you first presented your project here on this forum. My advice to you would be that you leave the topic of abandoned works to people who've been around for long and thus know names, contacts and history better than most other (and let me tell you, there are people working on this - with all the due strictness and work, that's why there's so little to be seen in public) and instead concentrate on those addons which are legally available from their original authors, from people permitted by the original author or legally redistributable per their license. Your site has great potential to become the main current German-language OpenBVE link list, bringing the whole world of OpenBVE together and presenting it to the German public. But for that, you must stick to legal content. There's plenty of that already. No need to dig in the dark muds of history and to tread on the thin legal ice of presumed abandonware. It's quality, not quantity of content your site needs. Better show three legal routes but present them in all detail (with screenshots, links to signal system explanations etc.) than to show ten routes of shady origin while only linking to them without any explanation.
Please be aware that if you do not change your course of action and thus stay in conflict with our rules, we will ultimately be forced to block/ban you and your project - and that would really be a pity, for, as I said, I think you with your site have big potential. Just use it resposibly and legally, okay?
Martin. You've been fired a warning shot ("Schuss vor den Bug" if you will) by a major developer of OpenBVE addons, showing you quite clearly how your sloppy attitude towards copyright is creating problems and endangering peace and progress in the scene. Judging by your reaction you're still not getting it, so let me put this straight and simple:
- basically speaking: a work's owner (or their [language explanation: "they" means "er/sie" in this context] legal representative/s) has the copyright to their work. They decide if they publish their works and if so, under what conditions - in short, what the license is. If there is no license text, terms and conditions or similar, this doesn't mean there are no restrictions. Quite to the contrary this means the work has to be treated in the most restrictive way. So: Unless the work is published under a license stating otherwise (e.g. most CC licenses, Berkeley license, GNU etc.), noone is permitted to upload/share/otherwise distribute the work, safe for the author/s themselves and people they've explicitly permitted to do so. That's the principle.
- it is at the copyright holder's sole discretion to publish, withdraw, republish, change or forget the work (unless stated otherwise by a license). That can be sad for the users, but the users have no rights (unless granted by a license) to the work whatsoever. So if a website goes down this doesn't entitle anybody to anything (unless a license...)!
- now that we've clarified the basics and principles we can talk about some special cases. If there is some really old addon one considers a gem or otherwise important, whose author hasn't been heard of for years, one could maybe start thinking about doing something about this. But this isn't easy and shouldn't be taken on a light shoulder at all. You really have to try all possibilities of reaching the author or looking for representatives (like heirs). This doesn't mean a quick Google search of the original website though. This means months and months of painstakingly meticulous research for the author on all possible ways (including social media, snail mail etc. etc.). And if after all that time you still can't find any contact, and also you can't find any sign (!!!) the work was not merely forgotten/abandoned but withdrawn (in this case the work would be lost without discussion and never to be re-released under any conditions until 60 years after the author's death, unless the author or their heirs decide otherwise), then and only then you could start thinking about hosting it yourself. But this still would not be strictly legal, thus at your sole responsibility, at your own risk and with the distinct possibility the copyright holder/s will get back to you with a more or less friendly (i.e. more or less expensive - for you, that is) answer after all.
- you rehosted works mere days after their original site went down, even failing to notice the, still active, author himself hosts them on a different site. This tells me you haven't encompassed the scope of all the conditions and work necessary to consider something abandonware.
Summa summarum: The way you've been acting and writing, I am coming to the conclusion you're still not grasping the issues and problems we've been trying to explain to you since you first presented your project here on this forum. My advice to you would be that you leave the topic of abandoned works to people who've been around for long and thus know names, contacts and history better than most other (and let me tell you, there are people working on this - with all the due strictness and work, that's why there's so little to be seen in public) and instead concentrate on those addons which are legally available from their original authors, from people permitted by the original author or legally redistributable per their license. Your site has great potential to become the main current German-language OpenBVE link list, bringing the whole world of OpenBVE together and presenting it to the German public. But for that, you must stick to legal content. There's plenty of that already. No need to dig in the dark muds of history and to tread on the thin legal ice of presumed abandonware. It's quality, not quantity of content your site needs. Better show three legal routes but present them in all detail (with screenshots, links to signal system explanations etc.) than to show ten routes of shady origin while only linking to them without any explanation.
Please be aware that if you do not change your course of action and thus stay in conflict with our rules, we will ultimately be forced to block/ban you and your project - and that would really be a pity, for, as I said, I think you with your site have big potential. Just use it resposibly and legally, okay?
Quork- Posts : 1437
Join date : 2012-05-05
Age : 32
Location : Hofheim a.T., Hessen (Hesse), European Union
Re: Trainsimstuff offline?
by Martin Ziegler Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:24 pm
All hosted stuff (from which I don't have the permission of the author) is offline by now.
Martin Ziegler- Posts : 17
Join date : 2017-08-17
Location : Germany -
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